1 00:00:00,012 --> 00:00:08,016 As we said, student votes are not the only things that we considered when we decided 2 00:00:08,016 --> 00:00:15,226 which arguments to comment on this week. But there was one argument that received 3 00:00:15,226 --> 00:00:21,054 over 200 votes and, it comments on something from the very first week of the 4 00:00:21,054 --> 00:00:24,036 course. So, it's a great place to start. 5 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:27,684 Here it is. Strong arguments don't always persuade 6 00:00:27,684 --> 00:00:31,441 everyone. By, Jessica Hyde, in the United Kingdom. 7 00:00:31,441 --> 00:00:37,355 It's not enough for an argument to be strong, valid and sound to be persuasive. 8 00:00:37,355 --> 00:00:42,328 You can have an argument for which every premise is genuinely true. 9 00:00:42,328 --> 00:00:46,836 And where every conceivable flaw in the argument is negated. 10 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:52,370 And still not have it be persuasive. There will almost always be someone who 11 00:00:52,370 --> 00:00:58,304 either misunderstands the argument or blindly believes the opposite of a premise 12 00:00:58,304 --> 00:01:02,299 in face of facts. Human beings aren't always logical and 13 00:01:02,299 --> 00:01:06,670 don't always believe scientifically proven cause and effect. 14 00:01:06,670 --> 00:01:10,850 Religious and cultural beliefs can be too hard to overcome. 15 00:01:10,851 --> 00:01:16,051 So, even the best arguments can have disbelievers. 16 00:01:16,051 --> 00:01:20,441 Thank you, Jessica. What a great argument. 17 00:01:20,441 --> 00:01:25,473 I'm convinced. The topic of this argument goes all the 18 00:01:25,473 --> 00:01:32,925 way back to week one, because it's really about the difference between persuasion 19 00:01:32,925 --> 00:01:36,794 and justification. Those were two of the purposes of 20 00:01:36,794 --> 00:01:41,187 arguments that we studied in week one. Remember, to persuade someone is to 21 00:01:41,187 --> 00:01:45,947 convince them or change their mind into believing what you wanted them to believe 22 00:01:45,947 --> 00:01:48,786 and what you were trying to get them to believe. 23 00:01:48,786 --> 00:01:53,413 Where it's justified, is giving them a reason to believe your conclusion. 24 00:01:53,413 --> 00:01:58,310 And those are different, because as Jessica argues very well, sometimes people 25 00:01:58,310 --> 00:02:01,693 make mistakes. You give a perfectly good argument with 26 00:02:01,693 --> 00:02:06,146 perfectly good premises, and it's formulated as clearly as could ever be 27 00:02:06,146 --> 00:02:09,428 expected. And yet, they don't understand it, or they 28 00:02:09,428 --> 00:02:13,171 don't believe your premises, and so they're not persuaded. 29 00:02:13,172 --> 00:02:18,688 But still, you did give a good argument. So you succeeded in justifying your 30 00:02:18,688 --> 00:02:21,960 belief. But what was it a good argument if you 31 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,201 were trying to persuade them? Or maybe not. 32 00:02:25,201 --> 00:02:31,015 If your purpose was trying to persuade them, then it might matter to you that you 33 00:02:31,015 --> 00:02:35,464 didn't persuade. Whereas if your purpose was to justify the 34 00:02:35,464 --> 00:02:41,381 conclusion, to give a reason to believe it then you did succeed in that purpose. 35 00:02:41,381 --> 00:02:45,851 So whether you see it as a good argument or not is going to depend a lot on what 36 00:02:45,851 --> 00:02:49,316 your purpose is. Now we've been assuming throughout a lot 37 00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:53,386 of this course that the point was to justify, and to give good reason. 38 00:02:53,386 --> 00:02:58,152 So we've been learning how to asseess whether arugments really give good reasons 39 00:02:58,152 --> 00:03:01,510 or not. But as Jessica points out, sometimes 40 00:03:01,510 --> 00:03:06,702 you're going to want to persuade and it's not always going to be easy to turn an 41 00:03:06,702 --> 00:03:12,159 argument that justifies and gives a good reason into one that persuades. 42 00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:17,797 That is going to depend on making sure that they do accept your premises and that 43 00:03:17,797 --> 00:03:22,674 they do understand your arguments and that's yet another trick. 44 00:03:22,675 --> 00:03:27,186 That we haven't discussed perhaps as much as we should've. 45 00:03:27,186 --> 00:03:32,682 And we learn another lesson from one of the student comments on Jessica's 46 00:03:32,682 --> 00:03:35,386 argument. Here it is, from Judith. 47 00:03:35,386 --> 00:03:41,151 I think Jessica has opened a very interesting discussion with her argument. 48 00:03:41,151 --> 00:03:44,873 Thank you Jessica, I appreciate that. We do too. 49 00:03:44,874 --> 00:03:50,116 What I'm learning is the purpose of an argument is to state with clarity and some 50 00:03:50,116 --> 00:03:53,284 degree of certainty an opinion or point of view. 51 00:03:53,284 --> 00:03:58,516 A valid, strong and sound argument in and of itself may never persuade or convert 52 00:03:58,516 --> 00:04:01,501 anyone to adopt a different way of thinking. 53 00:04:01,501 --> 00:04:04,901 So what? What a strong argument does is communicate 54 00:04:04,901 --> 00:04:08,008 clearly what one thinks. And why they think it. 55 00:04:08,008 --> 00:04:12,380 So I guess the benchmark of success for many arguements is not complete 56 00:04:12,380 --> 00:04:15,552 persuasion, but is how clearly one is understood. 57 00:04:15,552 --> 00:04:20,668 If someone's intent is to blindly refute everything, that's not an intellectually 58 00:04:20,668 --> 00:04:24,586 honest engagement. I found that in constructing better, more 59 00:04:24,586 --> 00:04:29,986 thoughtful arguments, people may not agree with me, but they're far more considerate 60 00:04:29,986 --> 00:04:34,618 of what I have to say. About using much of what we're learning. 61 00:04:34,618 --> 00:04:38,495 I'm listening much more intently about other views. 62 00:04:38,495 --> 00:04:43,900 Yes, Jessica many things do defy logic. We just keep trying to do our best. 63 00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:46,698 Thank you Judith. What a great point. 64 00:04:46,698 --> 00:04:52,707 Because what you've done, is you've shown us that they're other goals of arguments 65 00:04:52,707 --> 00:04:56,334 in addition to persuasion and justification. 66 00:04:56,334 --> 00:05:01,964 One you mentioned was understanding. Sometimes the point of an argument is not 67 00:05:01,964 --> 00:05:07,592 to bring other people over to your point of view, but just to make them understand 68 00:05:07,592 --> 00:05:13,369 why you hold the position that you do. If you're trying to show them your reasons 69 00:05:13,369 --> 00:05:19,421 even if you know that those reasons are not reasons that they themselves are going 70 00:05:19,421 --> 00:05:22,834 to accept. Well why would you want to do that? 71 00:05:22,834 --> 00:05:28,699 As you say, because it makes them more considerate of what you believe and of 72 00:05:28,699 --> 00:05:35,116 you, because if we understand each other and the reasons why we hold our positions, 73 00:05:35,116 --> 00:05:40,543 we'll respect each other more, and be more considerate, not always. 74 00:05:40,543 --> 00:05:43,603 Of course, there are going to be exceptions. 75 00:05:43,603 --> 00:05:49,177 But as a general trend, we're going to get along with each other much better if we 76 00:05:49,177 --> 00:05:53,132 understand why we disagree. And what reasons we have. 77 00:05:53,132 --> 00:05:56,784 The example where this is not working is politics. 78 00:05:56,784 --> 00:06:02,320 Everybody knows that politicians just yell at each other and don't really listen to 79 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,284 each other. They just scream out what's going to 80 00:06:05,284 --> 00:06:09,828 appeal to their base without thinking about what the real reasons are for the 81 00:06:09,828 --> 00:06:13,727 positions they're holding. I think they'd be a lot better off and 82 00:06:13,727 --> 00:06:18,407 we'd be a lot better off if they were to take Judith's lesson and say, give us the 83 00:06:18,407 --> 00:06:22,593 reason so that we can understand why you're adopting that position. 84 00:06:22,593 --> 00:06:26,788 We'll give you our reasons so you can understand why we're adopting our 85 00:06:26,788 --> 00:06:30,136 position. And then we can seek a compromise by 86 00:06:30,136 --> 00:06:34,591 satisfying the values that we both are most concerned about. 87 00:06:34,591 --> 00:06:40,187 And arguments can play a role then, in helping us cooperate with each other and 88 00:06:40,187 --> 00:06:46,210 live with each other and compromise on the very important issues that we all face. 89 00:06:46,210 --> 00:06:52,202 Another lesson that Jessica and Judith have taught us, is don't set your sights 90 00:06:52,202 --> 00:06:56,010 too high. If your goal is to persuade everybody, 91 00:06:56,010 --> 00:07:01,462 you're going to be constantly frustrated, because there are always going to be 92 00:07:01,462 --> 00:07:05,750 people out there who don't understand your argument. 93 00:07:05,750 --> 00:07:12,277 Or who understand it, but are obstinate. And refuse to accept your premise, no 94 00:07:12,277 --> 00:07:18,029 matter how well you argue for it. So if you try to convince everybody, 95 00:07:18,029 --> 00:07:21,813 you're not going to succeed. So give it up. 96 00:07:21,813 --> 00:07:29,752 You can't convince or persuade everyone. Still, you can accomplish a lot. 97 00:07:29,752 --> 00:07:37,489 You can, help them understand you. You can come to understand them, and you 98 00:07:37,489 --> 00:07:43,079 can give them good reasons to believe your conclusion. 99 00:07:43,079 --> 00:07:49,693 Well, that's a lie and that can be very important, even if they're not persuaded. 100 00:07:49,693 --> 00:07:56,004 And you, if you're justified in believing your conclusion, can have reason to 101 00:07:56,004 --> 00:08:02,406 believe that the fault lies with them, not with you, when they don't accept your 102 00:08:02,406 --> 00:08:06,542 conclusion. Of course you probably can't convince them 103 00:08:06,542 --> 00:08:09,661 of that. You can't convince them that the fault 104 00:08:09,661 --> 00:08:14,227 lies with them, not with you. But still, you might have accomplished 105 00:08:14,227 --> 00:08:20,012 your goals, if your goals are reasonable. Namely, to increase understanding, to find 106 00:08:20,012 --> 00:08:25,212 the reasons for your belief, and to present those reasons in ways that people, 107 00:08:25,212 --> 00:08:30,452 ought to understand and accept. That's what justification is, and that's 108 00:08:30,452 --> 00:08:34,907 what understanding is. And those can be extremely valuable in 109 00:08:34,907 --> 00:08:38,407 arguments. Even if there's still some people out 110 00:08:38,407 --> 00:08:40,565 there, who aren't pursauded.