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- Hello and welcome to our week 3 Office 
Hours. 

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Professor Ariel, thank you again for 
joining me this week. 

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- My, my pleasure. 
What, what happened, it's professional? 

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- yes well you corrected me last time so 
I'm, I'm trying to be official. 

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sorry Dan. 
[laugh] And thank you guys for continuing 

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to summit such awesome questions. 
Keep doing that. 

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And we'll keep doing this. 
So this week our topic was dishonesty. 

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So our Office Hours is going to be all 
about dishonesty. 

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And you've submitted tons of questions on 
that topic and I will ask you about them. 

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- Very good. 
- So, we've covered the topic of free 

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and, of course, some things are not 
intended to be free. 

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- Mm-hm. 
- Some things are taken as if they are 

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free, but they are, they do cost money. 
So one of our questions is about internet 

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piracy and illegal downloading of music. 
And this is, this is something that has 

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really increased over the years, and sort 
of become an accepted practice. 

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It's a socially accepted to download 
things off the internet, books and music, 

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for free. 
The question is what can we do about this 

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and why has this acceptance sort of 
prevailed? 

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- Yep. 
By the way, it's not illegal in every 

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place. 
So I think for example, in Switzerland, 

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if I remember correctly, it is legal to 
download things. 

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It's just not legal to upload things. 
-[laugh]. 

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- And actually in Sweden there was a 
party that their main kind of ideology 

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for going into being part of the 
government was, or being elected was to 

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basically make internet piracy legal. 
And I think from that perspective, 

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internet piracy is a very interesting 
example for when it is easy for us to 

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rationalize bad behavior. 
And actually I, I gave a lecture 

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somewhere in San Francisco and I said 
something like in a side comment about 

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illegal downloads. 
And there was a young guy raised his hand 

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and he said, what do you mean illegal 
downloads. 

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He said musicians want their music to be 
heard and I'm actually helping them out. 

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He said on top of that record label 
companies are evil. 

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Terrible organization. 
They make too much money anyway. 

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He said and I would never pay for it 
anyway. 

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So, I'm not doing anything bad. 
In fact I'm helping a good cause. 

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Now if you would listen to him, you would 
think he was a, a knight in shining 

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armor. 
fighting the good fight to liberate 

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information from it's own shackles. 
But, but that's actually not, not a fair 

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characterization because if the artist 
really wanted the music to be for free, 

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they would put it up for free. 
And if the record labels wanted people to 

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be able to download this stuff, they 
would have just allowed this to happen. 

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Put a 0 price on it. 
But the reality is that the people who 

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have made this intellectual property, in 
many cases don't want it to be 

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distributed for free. 
But then we as individuals take the 

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liberty of taking it for free. 
And we justify it to ourselves in all 

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kinds of, all kinds of ways. 
And, and, from this perspective, if you 

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think about all kinds of things that 
we've discovered multiple ways to 

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rationalize it, large distance for money 
and internet downloads are almost a 

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perfect medium to not feel guilty about 
doing this. 

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And I think that, much like this young 
man, we can even create an envelope of 

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rationalization about why this is not 
just bad, but it's in fact good. 

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And, just imagine that somebody made 
$0.10 from creating a song, and now ask 

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yourself whether you would ever take 
$0.10 from their pockets. 

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The answer is probably, probably not. 
But downloading is something illegal. 

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We don't think about it in this way. 
We don't think of ourselves as taking 

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money from their pocket. 
Or imagine a different universe with 

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different rules of physics. 
I know it's hard to do. 

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But imagine there are some rules of 
physics that basically moving bytes and 

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atoms would cost some money. 
So that every time you downloaded 

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something illegally somebody would pay 
the bill. 

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Actually, you knew who was going to pay 
the bill. 

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Maybe it was your internet company in 
some cases, the people who produced the 

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music. 
But what if transferring this information 

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was costly? 
It wasn't free. 

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How would you feel under those conditions 
about downloading illegal stuff? 

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Probably very different. 
But the fact is that the moment that you 

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have something that has a high fixed cost 
in creating, but then 0, or very close to 

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0 distributional cost, we don't feel bad 
about stealing it. 

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And of course, on top of that we have the 
ideology, we have the distance and so on. 

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So it's almost a perfect medium to behave 
badly but don't feel bad about it. 

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And do you, do you download stuff 
illegally? 

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- I'm not going to admit to that. 
[laugh] - Okay, not going to admit. 

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Okay, I guess that, that answers the, the 
question. 

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I think that if the record industry in 
general are going to basically work on 

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guilt, it's not going to work out. 
It's going to be, the fight for people to 

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feel guilty, this environment is just 
going to be very, very tough. 

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I also think that when they fight for a, 
kind of, cost and benefit in us, it is 

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not working. 
So from time to time, in the US, they 

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catch somebody, then punish them in a big 
way. 

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And I don't think that has any effect 
either. 

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But I think that what has worked. 
What, what seems to me what have worked. 

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Is making the downloading more complex. 
So people who are less technically savvy 

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have a hard time, a harder time doing it. 
And actually my, my books are, are 

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available to download illegally in many, 
in many places. 

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- Are you sure you want to say that? 
- Well, you know. 

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I don't want to pro, promote it 
necessarily. 

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But when I, some of those places are very 
user friendly, but some of them, it's 

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really tough. 
[laugh]. 

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even for me to, to get the illegal copy 
of that. 

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so, so some, and, and, and then there's 
all kinds of other, other schemes 

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connected to it. 
So, anyway, so I think that guilt is 

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going to be a very tough process. 
you know, and, and actually in the 

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discussion boards for, for Coursera when 
there was a discussion by some students 

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about downloading my books illegally or 
not. 

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the, the method the kind of the tone of 
the discussion did not have feeling a, 

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of, of guilt, or at, at least not by a 
lot of people. 

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There were some people who pointed out 
that it would be nice. 

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But it was not the, the feeling of, I 
really feel bad about, about doing it. 

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There was a feeling of reciprocation. 
But not feeling bad. 

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So anyway, back to the point. 
I think that it's going to be incredibly 

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hard to get people to feel guilty. 
I think it's going to be incredibly tough 

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to get people to be afraid of being 
caught. 

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I think that the, the way that this would 
probably move forward is to make the 

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process of downloading this stuff more 
difficult and the process of buying it 

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legally cheaper and easier. 
And I think that is eventually what would 

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convince people. 
So I think the iTunes store have done 

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some, a lot of good for the music 
industry because it's incredibly easy and 

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not that expensive. 
We can still argue about how much, how 

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much it should cost, but I think those 
would be kind of the type of intervention 

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that would work out. 
I, I also think that the moment that some 

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musicians, for example work not through a 
label but the payment goes to them 

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directly, people feel more connected to 
that as well. 

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That kind of shrinks some of the distance 
and people feel more connected to it. 

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so it's, it's kind of an interesting 
world because you have a we talked, we 

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talked last time, we have people being 
incredibly generous in things like 

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Kickstarter, and giving a lot to people 
they care about, musicians and so-on. 

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At the same time illegal downloading's so 
easy. 

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- Yes, definitely. 
and, what you were saying about on the 

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discussion boards. 
I actually deleted someone's, someone's 

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post who had posted your books online and 
it said something cheeky like, shame on 

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you. 
And it just got, he came back at me with 

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this huge argument about how he should be 
allowed to post your books for free. 

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[laugh] Like no, actually. 
- Yeah, it's, it's, it's really 

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interesting to think how, how easy it is 
to make this into ideology. 

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I, I think a good exercise for anybody to 
do for this, to kind of figure out for 

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themselves, needs to spend let's say a 
year, working on something. 

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To decide to post it for pay and then 
seeing it posted for free illegally. 

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And then see how you would feel about it. 
[laugh] - Right. 

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- It's, it's a slightly different way of 
thinking about it that when you're just 

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talking hypothetically about other 
people's work. 

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- Right, when you see your own creation 
being[laugh]. 

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- And you know and, and there's some 
things that we create and we decide to 

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post for free. 
And it's perfectly up to your decision 

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but if you decide something is your 
livelihood and you decide not to post it 

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for free, that, that's a different 
feeling. 

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- Yes, definitely. 
Alright let's talk about altruistic 

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cheating. 
You talk a lot about cheating for 

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yourself you know, and the benefits of 
that and why we do so. 

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What about cheating for others? 
- Yes, so for me this was a terrible day 

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actually. 
So, I got a call from this organization 

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that I really love and they asked me if I 
would help them increase how much 

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donations they get. 
How they, how they solicit people to give 

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them money. 
And I give them money every year and I 

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was very happy to help them. 
And I said, okay, before I make some 

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suggestions, tell me, what have you tried 
before? 

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What has worked, what hasn't worked? 
Kind of, give me the, the lay of the 

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ground. 
So we can, you know, fit, understand 

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better what's going on and not repeat 
some mistakes you've done before. 

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And they described to me what they've 
done before, and I was appalled. 

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I, I couldn't believe the kind of immoral 
stuff that they were doing. 

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And you know, over the years I've seen 
lots of organizations trying to get 

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people to behave in certain ways. 
And this not-for-profit which is a 

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wonderful organization in every possible 
way, was nevertheless doing stuff that I 

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thought was just reprehensible. 
And I started wondering why? 

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And, one kind of the theory was, or one 
hypothesis was because it's for a good 

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cause. 
Because they could justify that this is 

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actually something positive. 
They could justify a higher degree of 

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dishonesty. 
So, so we tried it out and turns out 

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there's truth to this. 
So imagine that you work for yourself. 

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If you cheat, you are dishonest, you get 
to benefit from this. 

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Or another condition you’re dishonest, 
someone else gets to benefit from this. 

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Turns out that when somebody else gets to 
benefit from it you feel more free. 

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You feel a bit like Robin Hood. 
You’re helping the poor. 

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You're helping other people. 
And if you become good, better friends 

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with that, that person, but a friend of 
that person all of the sudden dishonesty 

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goes higher up. 
So I think there's something about 

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helping a group, helping individuals, 
helping society that helps people loosen 

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up. 
there are more reasoning. 

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I also think that's why politicians can 
lie so easily. 

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Right, because if you're a politician and 
you lie to get into elections. 

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I don't know if you realize this but 
there's, there's some politicians in some 

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parts of the world that have been known 
to be dishonest. 

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actually the gauge of political 
dishonesty is incredible right how much 

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dishonesty there is. 
And I think if you put yourself into the 

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role of a politician, it's very easy to 
say, if I got you to vote for me, it's 

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actually good for you. 
It's not for me that I just want to have 

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this position. 
It's actually good for you and for the 

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country and if you elect this other 
person, that will be devastating 

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political ideology for the country. 
And because of that I think they find it 

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much easier to, to tell lies. 
And not only that, we've done some 

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research on how much people expect their 
politicians to lie. 

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And people actually expect, actually 
people are willing to tolerate lots of 

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lies from the politicians who are on 
their side of the debate. 

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So if you're a democrat, you're willing 
for the democrats to lie more. 

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If you're a republican, you're willing 
for the republican to lie, to higher 

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degree. 
And I think because we understand that to 

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get things done in those cases it's 
important. 

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Like for the functional outcome of 
carrying out your job, we don't care 

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about how you do it. 
The outcome is what's important. 

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So politicians lie more and the people 
forgive them to a higher degree. 

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And I think there's some potential very 
negative escalation in that. 

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- So sort of like the ends justifying the 
means? 

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- The ends justifying the mean is for the 
good cause, therefore willing to tolerate 

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it. 
And the problem of course is that how 

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much of it are we willing to tolerate? 
And if we, if we're not going to be upset 

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with our politicians and particularly our 
politician who represents our side. 

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What are they going to be willing to get 
away with? 

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And then if the other side lies as well, 
there's going to be like a, a cold war. 

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- Right. 
- Of, of escalation of dishonesty, which 

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is. 
- Cascade. 

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- Very, very dangerous. 
- Do you think that more licensing also 

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can tie into this? 
- Yeah absolutely. 

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So more licensing is that all of the 
sudden you come up with justification 

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about why this is actually a good thing. 
So, you know, if you all just voted for 

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me the country would be better off. 
this particular program is really useful 

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so it's okay to hide some of the 
information. 

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And it basically takes away things from 
our kind of selfish realm of our selfish 

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benefit verses the cost to other people. 
And it's moving to a, kind of an exercise 

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of other people's cost verses other 
people's benefit verses dishonesty. 

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And all of a sudden dishonesty can have a 
much better payoff. 

211
00:14:15,353 --> 00:14:19,328
- Alright, so, 
- It's very sad. 

212
00:14:19,328 --> 00:14:23,824
- It is very sad, it's very sad. 
And, and, this person actually made the 

213
00:14:23,824 --> 00:14:27,728
connection between Enron and you know, a 
lot of the people who are in Enron 

214
00:14:27,728 --> 00:14:31,815
involved in this, you know, this giant 
financial scandal, were very wealthy and 

215
00:14:31,815 --> 00:14:36,379
also charitable individuals. 
- Yeah. 

216
00:14:36,379 --> 00:14:40,149
- And so, notice that maybe the fact that 
they're giving so much away gave them, 

217
00:14:40,149 --> 00:14:44,620
you know, the impression that they could 
take a little more. 

218
00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:47,878
- Yeah, ability, and this, this, you 
could also think about this hand washing. 

219
00:14:47,878 --> 00:14:50,649
- Right. 
- Right, what happens if you misbehave in 

220
00:14:50,649 --> 00:14:54,458
one domain, can you cleanse yourself in 
another domain? 

221
00:14:54,458 --> 00:14:58,753
And, you know, in religious thought 
there's all kinds of things like that. 

222
00:14:58,753 --> 00:15:02,818
What do you ask forgiveness from. 
you know, a company who's polluting a 

223
00:15:02,818 --> 00:15:06,220
river, what can they do to cleanse 
themselves? 

224
00:15:06,220 --> 00:15:09,060
Can they give money to charity? 
Can they help some kids? 

225
00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:11,675
What about if they do something nice for 
the ocean? 

226
00:15:11,675 --> 00:15:16,870
and discussion of how we do, we deal with 
this as individuals is also interesting. 

227
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:20,272
If we misbehave in one direction do we 
feel an extra need to give in something 

228
00:15:20,272 --> 00:15:24,590
else. 
- Right, right. 

229
00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:31,628
So do you think that there is some sort 
of deeply ingrained moral compass within 

230
00:15:31,628 --> 00:15:35,700
humans? 
- So, I don't know. 

231
00:15:36,950 --> 00:15:42,410
what is clear is that cheating in the 
animal kingdom is very different. 

232
00:15:42,410 --> 00:15:46,264
So let's take monkeys, for example. 
In the monkey world, there's a very 

233
00:15:46,264 --> 00:15:50,128
strict hierarchy and monkey at the top of 
the hierarchy should get all the first 

234
00:15:50,128 --> 00:15:53,600
stab, stab at the, stab at the good food 
and then it goes down to the lower 

235
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,534
levels. 
But if you're a monkey at lower levels, 

236
00:15:58,534 --> 00:16:05,100
and you find a piece of good fruit you're 
not going to tell the person at the top. 

237
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:09,126
if you can hide that piece of fruit and 
eat it without anybody seeing, that's 

238
00:16:09,126 --> 00:16:15,735
what you're going to do. 
and monkeys don't have guilt about it. 

239
00:16:15,735 --> 00:16:20,008
what's interesting about humans is that 
we've developed things like guilt. 

240
00:16:20,008 --> 00:16:23,356
Which means that even if nobody else 
would see it, if we make the equivalent 

241
00:16:23,356 --> 00:16:27,240
for the, say, fruit, we would still feel 
back about it. 

242
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,201
Right, even if nobody else would find 
out, you would feel guilty about going 

243
00:16:30,201 --> 00:16:34,620
into one of your friends' homes at night, 
and taking some fruit. 

244
00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:37,272
Even if you they're ranked higher in the 
social hierarchy what, what, whatever it 

245
00:16:37,272 --> 00:16:41,570
is. 
something inside would, would stop you. 

246
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,150
So, so from that perspective it is not 
ingrained like other things in decision 

247
00:16:47,150 --> 00:16:50,805
making. 
So, we, we mention this asymmetric 

248
00:16:50,805 --> 00:16:55,530
dominance and some other effects or 
relativity are common to us and to other 

249
00:16:55,530 --> 00:16:59,660
animals. 
Emotions of course are in many ways 

250
00:16:59,660 --> 00:17:04,386
connected to us and to animals. 
Inability to think about the long term 

251
00:17:04,386 --> 00:17:08,544
are connected and with, with the sense, a 
sense of moral compass, I don't really 

252
00:17:08,544 --> 00:17:12,744
know. 
Alright, so, it's, it's a unique skill 

253
00:17:12,744 --> 00:17:19,458
that we, skill or ability, that we have. 
And of course we develop it throughout 

254
00:17:19,458 --> 00:17:22,439
time. 
But whenever we measure something that 

255
00:17:22,439 --> 00:17:26,471
develops throughout time, it's hard to 
figure out what is the basis that have 

256
00:17:26,471 --> 00:17:32,000
been established in oue biology and was 
it just acquired socially. 

257
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,871
So, I, I don't know. 
But it's a, it's a fascinating question. 

258
00:17:35,871 --> 00:17:39,873
And one way to try and answer it, of 
course, is to try and go to some small 

259
00:17:39,873 --> 00:17:44,916
scale societies. 
And try to examine variations across 

260
00:17:44,916 --> 00:17:50,016
cultures and maybe that could teach us 
something about that 

261
00:17:50,016 --> 00:17:53,450
And are you looking to, to travel 
somewhere? 

262
00:17:53,450 --> 00:17:55,432
- no, no. 
[laugh] That's the perfect segway to my 

263
00:17:55,432 --> 00:17:58,040
next question about the variations 
between cultures. 

264
00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,130
[laugh] so I'll take that. 
- Okay. 

265
00:17:59,130 --> 00:18:05,716
- you have gotten a plethora of comments 
about cultural differences, individual 

266
00:18:05,716 --> 00:18:11,910
differences. 
And how generalizable are your results? 

267
00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:16,280
How widespread are these phenomena? 
so let's start with, just, specifically 

268
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,242
dishonesty. 
- Yeah. 

269
00:18:18,242 --> 00:18:20,170
- tell me a little bit about what you've 
done there. 

270
00:18:20,170 --> 00:18:24,650
And I have a, a, a nice long list of all 
of the variables that your students have 

271
00:18:24,650 --> 00:18:28,860
identified. 
I don't know if you want to tackle those. 

272
00:18:28,860 --> 00:18:33,530
- Okay, so, so let's start with, with 
cultural differences. 

273
00:18:33,530 --> 00:18:39,370
So we've tried these experiments with the 
Matrix in a few places. 

274
00:18:39,370 --> 00:18:43,820
we tried Israel so far. 
And the Israelis cheat just like the 

275
00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:46,672
Americans. 
I grew up in Israel and I expected 

276
00:18:46,672 --> 00:18:49,480
people, that Israel to cheat more. 
They don't. 

277
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,904
They cheat just the same. 
By the way, just think about it for 

278
00:18:51,904 --> 00:18:54,140
yourself. 
I, I, know many of you are coming from 

279
00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:59,164
all kinds of other countries. 
think whether you, you would predict that 

280
00:18:59,164 --> 00:19:04,530
the people in your country of origin 
would cheat more or less than Americans. 

281
00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:07,320
And when I do, they say, fuck 
experiments. 

282
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,782
But actually just think about it for a 
second. 

283
00:19:08,782 --> 00:19:14,850
And when I do these thought experiments, 
across every place I, I travel. 

284
00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:17,859
Many people think in their country of 
origin people cheat more than the 

285
00:19:17,859 --> 00:19:20,766
Americans, with the exception of the 
Canadians, of course, and some 

286
00:19:20,766 --> 00:19:24,752
Scandinavians. 
so anyway we, we tested this in a few 

287
00:19:24,752 --> 00:19:28,534
countries and we have a bigger project 
ongoing right now, so this is not the 

288
00:19:28,534 --> 00:19:35,110
final answer for this. 
This is just our current understanding. 

289
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:39,425
In Israel, people cheat just the same. 
Franchesca Gino, my our Italian 

290
00:19:39,425 --> 00:19:44,033
collaborator said come to Italy, we'll 
show you what the Italians can do. 

291
00:19:44,033 --> 00:19:47,660
But as far as we can tell, the Italians 
cheat just the same. 

292
00:19:47,660 --> 00:19:50,974
we tried England. 
We tried China. 

293
00:19:50,974 --> 00:19:56,771
We tried Turkey and we tried Canada. 
Because the Canadian's think they are 

294
00:19:56,771 --> 00:20:01,265
better, they're not. 
And we we just did a first run of studies 

295
00:20:01,265 --> 00:20:06,302
in Columbia, in Bogota, in South America, 
America and so far we get the same, the 

296
00:20:06,302 --> 00:20:12,144
same results. 
and here is the kind of baffling 

297
00:20:12,144 --> 00:20:16,451
conclusion from this. 
Because everybody's who's traveled to 

298
00:20:16,451 --> 00:20:18,634
different places get a sense that 
cheating in different places is very 

299
00:20:18,634 --> 00:20:23,472
different. 
At the same time we also have amnesty has 

300
00:20:23,472 --> 00:20:28,209
this corruption index. 
that, that countries vary dramatically in 

301
00:20:28,209 --> 00:20:33,707
that in corruption is a kind of cheating. 
So what, what's going on here? 

302
00:20:33,707 --> 00:20:37,739
How come our results and what we see and 
experience in the market are so, are so 

303
00:20:37,739 --> 00:20:41,483
different? 
And we've done some studies in this and 

304
00:20:41,483 --> 00:20:46,820
this is what seems to be the picture. 
But again, not the final word on this. 

305
00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:51,710
Our experiments are detached from any 
cultural context. 

306
00:20:51,710 --> 00:20:54,824
Right, think about it. 
You do these matrix experiments or some 

307
00:20:54,824 --> 00:20:57,260
die rolling experiments. 
They're new. 

308
00:20:57,260 --> 00:21:00,216
They're novel. 
They're not connected to any particular 

309
00:21:00,216 --> 00:21:03,694
role in society. 
They're not a part of your relationship 

310
00:21:03,694 --> 00:21:06,887
with other people. 
Your role with the government. 

311
00:21:06,887 --> 00:21:10,020
Your relationship with[cough] insurance 
companies. 

312
00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:13,284
And because of that, because they're 
abstract, they measure the basic human 

313
00:21:13,284 --> 00:21:17,530
ability to cheat a little bit and feel 
good about it. 

314
00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:19,290
And that's something that it is just 
basic. 

315
00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:23,164
Our ability to rationalize is similar 
across the people. 

316
00:21:23,164 --> 00:21:27,590
Everybody we've tested so far, not 
everybody, but across, across places. 

317
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:31,180
Now that doesn't mean that culture 
doesn't matter. 

318
00:21:31,180 --> 00:21:33,220
It means that culture works on top of 
that. 

319
00:21:33,220 --> 00:21:37,680
And I think that the way culture works is 
culture takes a domain at a time. 

320
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,070
Cultural takes one domain and says, this 
is not really a moral issue. 

321
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:44,830
Don't worry about it, like illegal 
downloads. 

322
00:21:44,830 --> 00:21:47,820
Or culture takes another issue like 
infidelity and in some countries they say 

323
00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:50,815
worry about it a lot. 
In other countries, like France, they say 

324
00:21:50,815 --> 00:21:53,940
don't worry about it so much. 
It's not a cultural issue. 

325
00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:59,436
Actually, I was in Switzerland last week. 
Switzerland is particularly interesting 

326
00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:04,080
because you have the German speaking 
Swiss and the french speaking Swiss. 

327
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,650
And their attitude toward infidelity are 
very, very different. 

328
00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:10,364
And sometimes it's a village next to a 
village with a line passing in the 

329
00:22:10,364 --> 00:22:13,262
middle, but their attitudes to the 
morality implied in those things is very 

330
00:22:13,262 --> 00:22:17,174
different. 
So, culture basically take the domain by 

331
00:22:17,174 --> 00:22:21,017
the domain and for each domain creates a 
different set of rules of how much we 

332
00:22:21,017 --> 00:22:26,613
should consider that. 
And, you know, what, there was an 

333
00:22:26,613 --> 00:22:34,450
interesting this discussion I had with, 
with Sam on, Sam Antar. 

334
00:22:34,450 --> 00:22:38,930
This is a guy who grew up in a crime 
family. 

335
00:22:38,930 --> 00:22:42,032
And one of the interesting lessons from 
the discussion with him was that in many 

336
00:22:42,032 --> 00:22:46,280
ways he was the poster boy for the 
Chicago School of Economics. 

337
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,723
In many ways he didn't care about morals. 
He didn't care about his customers, his 

338
00:22:50,723 --> 00:22:54,090
suppliers, the insurance company, the 
government. 

339
00:22:54,090 --> 00:22:57,100
There's like no more, it was just about 
making money. 

340
00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:00,200
And the other hand he had the whole 
another domain which was internal to his 

341
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,882
family. 
And in that domain internal to his 

342
00:23:02,882 --> 00:23:05,404
family. 
A handshake was a handshake, his word was 

343
00:23:05,404 --> 00:23:08,363
his word. 
There was no lattitude in not being 

344
00:23:08,363 --> 00:23:12,140
perfectly honest. 
And, and I think this is, more extreme 

345
00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:14,990
than any of us experience in our own 
life. 

346
00:23:14,990 --> 00:23:17,270
But he basically partitioned life into 
two. 

347
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:20,738
Outside life and inside the family life. 
No morals here. 

348
00:23:20,738 --> 00:23:25,470
More morals there. 
And I think that's what society does. 

349
00:23:25,470 --> 00:23:31,980
It defines how you want to think about 
these different, these different domains. 

350
00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:35,756
And, and from that perspective when you 
come to all kinds of individual 

351
00:23:35,756 --> 00:23:40,894
differences, you want to say. 
Do these individual differences translate 

352
00:23:40,894 --> 00:23:44,282
into some social differential social 
norms? 

353
00:23:44,282 --> 00:23:48,538
So, for example, older people, right? 
When you test younger and older people, 

354
00:23:48,538 --> 00:23:52,250
as you become older you have different 
rules for behavior. 

355
00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:55,960
Not really. 
You don't really have different rules for 

356
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,656
behavior and therefore I don't think 
there's a difference in dishonesty and so 

357
00:23:59,656 --> 00:24:04,108
on. 
There is one one domain in which there's 

358
00:24:04,108 --> 00:24:08,651
a huge gender difference. 
huge difference that your gender. 

359
00:24:08,651 --> 00:24:10,743
And what, what do you think is the 
difference is? 

360
00:24:10,743 --> 00:24:12,755
[laugh] - Oh gawd. 
- Difference is. 

361
00:24:12,755 --> 00:24:16,000
Not to put you on the spot. 
- No, well already know the answer so I'm 

362
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,682
not going[laugh]. 
- Yeah, so the difference in gender is 

363
00:24:18,682 --> 00:24:23,124
that usually, actually not usually, it's 
always women will ask this question. 

364
00:24:23,124 --> 00:24:26,439
women think that there's a gender 
difference but in our experiments there 

365
00:24:26,439 --> 00:24:29,699
isn't. 
there aren't any gender differences and. 

366
00:24:30,780 --> 00:24:33,552
Now, again, this doesn't mean that in 
real life there are no gender differences 

367
00:24:33,552 --> 00:24:37,031
with dishonesty. 
But it's not because of the na, unnat, 

368
00:24:37,031 --> 00:24:42,126
natural ability to rationalize. 
It's because there are domains of life in 

369
00:24:42,126 --> 00:24:45,066
which men have created different 
standards for behavior and women have 

370
00:24:45,066 --> 00:24:50,035
created different standards as well. 
And, you know, so for, I would suspect 

371
00:24:50,035 --> 00:24:53,500
that in some domains men have a higher 
tendency to be dishonest and other 

372
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:59,088
domains it's women but it's not about our 
basic ability to rationalize things. 

373
00:24:59,088 --> 00:25:06,160
- Okay so, where is the difference 
between genders? 

374
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,268
[cough] - Well, the difference is that 
women think that they are more honest. 

375
00:25:09,268 --> 00:25:11,295
- Oh, okay, okay. 
[crosstalk] We don't want to share. 

376
00:25:11,295 --> 00:25:14,442
- Women think they are more honest and 
they ask these questions more frequently. 

377
00:25:14,442 --> 00:25:16,777
[laugh] - Okay, okay. 
Well, there are, there are a lot of men 

378
00:25:16,777 --> 00:25:19,717
and women who are confused about gender 
differences. 

379
00:25:19,717 --> 00:25:23,755
- Okay, I should say, so far. 
And by the way, the one difference that 

380
00:25:23,755 --> 00:25:29,673
I'm really, really fascinated with, and 
I've not had a chance to look at is age. 

381
00:25:29,673 --> 00:25:32,160
- Yes. 
There are a lot of people who are very 

382
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,356
curious about that. 
- It's, it's really fascinating and, and 

383
00:25:35,356 --> 00:25:39,030
we tried to think about how to do this 
research. 

384
00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:42,840
It is so complex. 
You have to create a separate lab. 

385
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,630
You have to get the parents involved. 
The parents have to agree. 

386
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:48,786
It's dishonesty. 
Not all parents are interested in 

387
00:25:48,786 --> 00:25:50,667
knowing. 
- When you're younger. 

388
00:25:50,667 --> 00:25:51,840
- Yeah, yeah. 
- With kids, okay. 

389
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,294
- Yeah, yeah. 
We wanted young kids. 

390
00:25:54,294 --> 00:25:58,634
And, so, developmental psychology in 
general is an, an amazing area of 

391
00:25:58,634 --> 00:26:01,650
specialization. 
but stepping into it is, is very tough. 

392
00:26:01,650 --> 00:26:10,107
You really need to kind of, spend all 
your effort and time in this. 

393
00:26:10,107 --> 00:26:15,016
I, I'm not ready yet to do that. 
So, so we're not going to do it, but it's 

394
00:26:15,016 --> 00:26:18,300
a fascinating important question. 
- Great. 

395
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:22,990
so what about things like education, or 
IQ, happiness, self worth, these things 

396
00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:27,776
that people think are very important? 
- Yeah, so, so. 

397
00:26:27,776 --> 00:26:30,277
- And have, sorry, not that they're not 
important. 

398
00:26:30,277 --> 00:26:32,525
[laugh]. 
- You mean that the importance is always 

399
00:26:32,525 --> 00:26:34,136
there. 
- Right. 

400
00:26:34,136 --> 00:26:36,280
- Happiness. 
- Who needs to be happy? 

401
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:43,845
- And, so, so we haven't tested lots of 
those but IQ doesn't matter. 

402
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:48,460
The range we've tested. 
Creativity does. 

403
00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:52,156
If you think about our story, our story 
is that it's all about feeling good about 

404
00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:56,472
yourself and being dishonest. 
It's all about weaving a tale, telling a 

405
00:26:56,472 --> 00:27:00,495
story about why this is actually okay. 
And if you're more creative you can tell 

406
00:27:00,495 --> 00:27:02,674
by the stories. 
You can tell by the stories and be 

407
00:27:02,674 --> 00:27:06,435
dishonest at the same time. 
So that, that matters. 

408
00:27:06,435 --> 00:27:10,172
when we look at risk attitude. 
For example, are you, thinking 

409
00:27:10,172 --> 00:27:13,560
differently about being caught? 
We don't find any difference. 

410
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,317
When we look at social economic status 
poor versus wealthy, we don't find a big 

411
00:27:18,317 --> 00:27:23,152
difference. 
We did find that if we get people to 

412
00:27:23,152 --> 00:27:27,071
believe that their particular place in 
society's unfair. 

413
00:27:27,071 --> 00:27:30,390
Right, you imagine I come to you and say, 
you know what? 

414
00:27:30,390 --> 00:27:33,320
You really look like a nice person. 
I, I measured your intelligence and 

415
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,310
skill, and you know what? 
You should have done better. 

416
00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:39,250
But you're unlucky and life has not dealt 
you the right cards. 

417
00:27:39,250 --> 00:27:41,980
And it's no fault of your own. 
But you're really suffering more than you 

418
00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:44,450
should. 
You should, you deserve to do better. 

419
00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:47,866
If you can convince yourself in this 
story, that your real skill is higher 

420
00:27:47,866 --> 00:27:52,680
than what you're getting, now you feel 
more justified to be dishonest. 

421
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,815
But pure social economic status doesn't 
explain it. 

422
00:27:55,815 --> 00:28:01,031
And there's much more to do in this. 
Area to try to understand it, but I think 

423
00:28:01,031 --> 00:28:04,660
we need to think about, at least try to 
now. 

424
00:28:04,660 --> 00:28:08,290
It looks at the personality differences 
that would matter are the one that feed 

425
00:28:08,290 --> 00:28:12,350
into the ability to explain why this is 
okay. 

426
00:28:12,350 --> 00:28:16,214
And, individual differences that have to 
do just with how much wealth do you have 

427
00:28:16,214 --> 00:28:21,465
or how afraid you are of being caught. 
It don't seem to matter that much. 

428
00:28:21,465 --> 00:28:24,330
- Alright. 
And what about religiosity? 

429
00:28:24,330 --> 00:28:28,975
You use religion as one of your moral 
reminders in a lot of experiments. 

430
00:28:28,975 --> 00:28:33,381
- Yeah. 
So, we, we did a study in, in Turkey 

431
00:28:33,381 --> 00:28:38,890
during Ramadan. 
Ramadan is a period of a month where 

432
00:28:38,890 --> 00:28:47,590
devout Muslims fast during the day. 
And we try to understand people's moral 

433
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:53,540
convictions towards all kinds of aspects 
of life during Ramadan and also before 

434
00:28:53,540 --> 00:28:58,060
and after. 
And what we found. 

435
00:28:58,060 --> 00:29:02,147
Is that during Ramadan, the moral 
convictions changed but only for moral 

436
00:29:02,147 --> 00:29:09,762
convictions that had to do with religion. 
So, for example things that have to do 

437
00:29:09,762 --> 00:29:15,022
with washing hands and all kinds of 
rituals that have to do with religion. 

438
00:29:15,022 --> 00:29:19,279
People felt differently about it. 
but things that had to do with the state 

439
00:29:19,279 --> 00:29:23,650
and taxes and government and so on, there 
was no difference. 

440
00:29:23,650 --> 00:29:27,993
So, so I think religiosity does matter. 
But I think it matters to the thing that 

441
00:29:27,993 --> 00:29:31,100
we put together with the religious 
bucket. 

442
00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:34,390
So again, imagine you have life and you 
have all kinds of buckets. 

443
00:29:34,390 --> 00:29:37,690
You have a religious bucket. 
Now for people who are religious, more 

444
00:29:37,690 --> 00:29:41,380
religious, this bucket might include more 
things. 

445
00:29:41,380 --> 00:29:44,725
But the real issue is, is it part of the 
religious bucket or not? 

446
00:29:44,725 --> 00:29:48,949
So I, I would speculate that if you can 
convince religious people that paying 

447
00:29:48,949 --> 00:29:53,371
taxes, or paying only when you get the 
receipt from a cabdriver, and so on, are 

448
00:29:53,371 --> 00:29:59,890
part of the religious obligation, it 
would have an effect. 

449
00:29:59,890 --> 00:30:04,446
But if they view it outside of religion, 
it's not going to have not going to have 

450
00:30:04,446 --> 00:30:08,290
an effect. 
So, I think, I think the value of 

451
00:30:08,290 --> 00:30:12,582
religion would be in, in creating more 
honesty, depends on religious 

452
00:30:12,582 --> 00:30:18,980
encompassing more aspects of life. 
Which we should debate if that's a good 

453
00:30:18,980 --> 00:30:22,240
thing or a bad thing. 
- [laugh]Yeah probably not. 

454
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:28,985
Why do people gossip? 
- Why do people gossip? 

455
00:30:28,985 --> 00:30:32,136
- Yeah. 
- So Douglas Adams one of my favorite 

456
00:30:32,136 --> 00:30:37,435
authors, actually sadly died. 
I actually think about him a lot, because 

457
00:30:37,435 --> 00:30:41,318
he died when he played squash. 
- Oh, oh.[laugh]. 

458
00:30:41,318 --> 00:30:45,932
- And I don't play much and from time to 
time I go to play, and I 

459
00:30:45,932 --> 00:30:50,092
Actually chasing the little black ball 
caused many men in their forties to die 

460
00:30:50,092 --> 00:30:53,940
from heart attack. 
And, anyway, okay. 

461
00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:55,700
I'm not, how did we get there? 
- Yeah. 

462
00:30:55,700 --> 00:31:00,620
- Anyway so Douglas Adams had he wrote 
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. 

463
00:31:00,620 --> 00:31:07,710
And he wrote at some point that, there's 
a, a spaceship that was driven by gossip. 

464
00:31:07,710 --> 00:31:10,847
That was the power that was, this. 
Because he discovered that gossip is 

465
00:31:10,847 --> 00:31:14,291
faster than the speed of light. 
-[laugh] So this was the fastest thing 

466
00:31:14,291 --> 00:31:17,854
possible. 
I, I think actually gossip does a few, a 

467
00:31:17,854 --> 00:31:20,609
few things. 
I think first of all it's a, it's a 

468
00:31:20,609 --> 00:31:24,498
social coordination mechanism. 
Right, so many times when we get together 

469
00:31:24,498 --> 00:31:27,412
with other people there's a question of 
what are we going to talk about that 

470
00:31:27,412 --> 00:31:31,460
would be of common interest. 
And gossip is one of those things that 

471
00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:35,975
have a, a common interest. 
That's I think why people read news about 

472
00:31:35,975 --> 00:31:39,791
celebrities. 
It's kind of a gossip lots of people in 

473
00:31:39,791 --> 00:31:43,887
society know about it and, it creates 
some kind of common platform to discuss 

474
00:31:43,887 --> 00:31:47,552
things. 
It's also something where you can signal 

475
00:31:47,552 --> 00:31:49,840
to other people that you are on top of 
things. 

476
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,928
So again, think about celebrity gossip. 
If I read, what's a celebrity. 

477
00:31:53,928 --> 00:31:56,443
- Oh, gawd. 
- That is like Us Weekly or something? 

478
00:31:56,443 --> 00:31:57,055
- Sure. 
- Us? 

479
00:31:57,055 --> 00:31:58,720
People? 
- People. 

480
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,350
Let's say we read People. 
If we discuss the gossip from People from 

481
00:32:02,350 --> 00:32:05,870
this week we know that if you come up and 
you talk about people from last week we 

482
00:32:05,870 --> 00:32:09,120
know you're not in the know. 
Right? 

483
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,940
You're a week behind, or a month behind, 
and so. 

484
00:32:10,940 --> 00:32:15,560
So, so there's a social coordination. 
We agree what we're going to talk about. 

485
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,830
You have to keep up with it, so that's 
part of it. 

486
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:22,276
I think gossip is also a way for us to 
figure what is acceptable and not 

487
00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:26,678
acceptable. 
You know, how how would you figure out? 

488
00:32:26,678 --> 00:32:30,372
I mean we know the rules of society. 
You know, for many things we know what's 

489
00:32:30,372 --> 00:32:33,704
legal and not legal but what's acceptable 
and not acceptable we don't know to that 

490
00:32:33,704 --> 00:32:36,880
degree. 
Gossip helps us. 

491
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,163
If people are gossiped about in a bad way 
we know that's just something that in our 

492
00:32:40,163 --> 00:32:44,130
particular circle is not acceptable. 
How do we, how do we figure it out? 

493
00:32:44,130 --> 00:32:50,112
So gossip is very useful in that regard. 
And, and finally, I think that gossip 

494
00:32:50,112 --> 00:32:57,798
helps people feel better in some sense. 
So we have this research showing that 

495
00:32:57,798 --> 00:33:02,830
sometimes people complain to show other 
people that they are not as bad off as, 

496
00:33:02,830 --> 00:33:08,705
as they think. 
So, imagine not you but somebody else, 

497
00:33:08,705 --> 00:33:13,340
came to me and said, you know what? 
My boss is just an awful human being, 

498
00:33:13,340 --> 00:33:17,050
life is terrible. 
- They're making me work hard. 

499
00:33:17,050 --> 00:33:24,060
I never get any recognition for my work. 
It's just like go on, and on and on. 

500
00:33:24,060 --> 00:33:27,690
One thing I could say, is I could say, 
you know what? 

501
00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:30,586
You think your life is bad? 
Let me tell you what's happening to 

502
00:33:30,586 --> 00:33:32,519
Ruthie. 
And now we can talk about how. 

503
00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:35,732
-[laugh] How things are for her, giving 
you a, a contrast to what, what we're 

504
00:33:35,732 --> 00:33:39,074
doing. 
So in this research work we show is that 

505
00:33:39,074 --> 00:33:43,764
sometimes complaining or sharing negative 
information is to provide for people a, 

506
00:33:43,764 --> 00:33:48,110
what's called a downward social 
comparison. 

507
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:52,382
To say, oh you think you're doing bad? 
Just listen to that story, and through 

508
00:33:52,382 --> 00:33:56,435
that story create something and make 
people feel better. 

509
00:33:56,435 --> 00:34:01,489
So, lots, lots of fascinating things 
about, about gossip. 

510
00:34:01,489 --> 00:34:07,764
Which, which one of those is the more 
important, I don't know. 

511
00:34:07,764 --> 00:34:12,490
- That's an empirical question[laugh]. 
Could study it in our own lab. 

512
00:34:12,490 --> 00:34:16,516
- And I, I also don't know if at the end 
of the day how much of gossip is actually 

513
00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:21,173
beneficial versus not. 
- Or true. 

514
00:34:21,173 --> 00:34:24,390
[laugh] - But beneficial or not I think 
is also an interesting question. 

515
00:34:24,390 --> 00:34:27,480
So with this[unknown] comparison. 
- Does it help? 

516
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,505
- I think it could, it could help. 
- Yeah. 

517
00:34:29,505 --> 00:34:33,409
Okay, so most of the cases where we talk 
about cheating and dishonestly we're 

518
00:34:33,409 --> 00:34:38,262
thinking about tangible goods where, 
where money is involved. 

519
00:34:38,262 --> 00:34:44,102
why would someone cheat with something 
like, in a sport, where there, there's no 

520
00:34:44,102 --> 00:34:48,418
reward. 
Or in this class where the reward is very 

521
00:34:48,418 --> 00:34:53,450
small you know, other than feeling good 
about yourself, or in a board game, 

522
00:34:53,450 --> 00:34:58,625
something yeah. 
- Yeah, so I, so I think 

523
00:34:58,625 --> 00:35:02,838
- So in all our experiments we use money 
as the, as the reward. 

524
00:35:02,838 --> 00:35:06,930
And it's not because I think it's the 
most important reward, or it's not the 

525
00:35:06,930 --> 00:35:10,830
only reward. 
But because it's both the reward and it's 

526
00:35:10,830 --> 00:35:13,200
measurable. 
It functions as both of those. 

527
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,672
I think people would cheat just as much 
for all kinds of other things, like pride 

528
00:35:18,672 --> 00:35:23,795
and self worth and competition. 
There's all kinds of things that motivate 

529
00:35:23,795 --> 00:35:26,040
human beings. 
You know, if you think about our 

530
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,952
experiments really. 
$10 that people can make or $5 an 

531
00:35:28,952 --> 00:35:33,402
experiment, is that the best reward we 
can create to motivate people? 

532
00:35:33,402 --> 00:35:35,940
Of course not. 
We can get people to do really crazy 

533
00:35:35,940 --> 00:35:40,130
stuff for small amounts of money if we 
train differently. 

534
00:35:40,130 --> 00:35:43,177
In terms of competition, for example, 
much more than money. 

535
00:35:43,177 --> 00:35:46,070
But money for us, was not just a way to 
motivate people. 

536
00:35:46,070 --> 00:35:50,050
It was more important to think about it 
as a way to to measure it. 

537
00:35:50,050 --> 00:35:54,824
but, but I think the same basic results 
about what would get us to be more 

538
00:35:54,824 --> 00:35:59,752
dishonest and what would get us to be 
more honest, would function in all kinds 

539
00:35:59,752 --> 00:36:04,925
of other areas. 
And, and when we came up with this Matrix 

540
00:36:04,925 --> 00:36:07,850
task, to start with it was, which was 
very important to us that people don't 

541
00:36:07,850 --> 00:36:11,185
take pride in it. 
So we need lots of pre-testing when we 

542
00:36:11,185 --> 00:36:14,298
thought about these task. 
And we wanted to create something that 

543
00:36:14,298 --> 00:36:17,726
people don't feel happy about solving. 
They don't think it reflects on them in 

544
00:36:17,726 --> 00:36:20,660
any way. 
So if we use IQ questions. 

545
00:36:20,660 --> 00:36:22,960
Or something from the Mensa Test and so 
on. 

546
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,990
If you answer more questions you would 
feel good bout it. 

547
00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:29,150
So we picked these questions that had, 
you know, find two numbers among a list 

548
00:36:29,150 --> 00:36:32,882
that add to ten. 
People who do this don't think they're 

549
00:36:32,882 --> 00:36:35,855
smarter in any way. 
They're just, it's, it's everybody could 

550
00:36:35,855 --> 00:36:38,000
do it. 
It's a simple math problem. 

551
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,889
It's just have you compared all of these 
elements. 

552
00:36:40,889 --> 00:36:44,138
Or we do other experiments with 
detecting, are there more dots on the 

553
00:36:44,138 --> 00:36:48,433
right side or the left side? 
Or do you guess correctly what happened 

554
00:36:48,433 --> 00:36:51,225
on the cube? 
On the, on the die when you toss it. 

555
00:36:51,225 --> 00:36:56,266
So, so, we actually try to stay away from 
these other motivations but, just for the 

556
00:36:56,266 --> 00:37:01,700
cleanliness of the experiment. 
But I think their absolutely, absolutely 

557
00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:06,368
part of this. 
let's just talk about cycling for 

558
00:37:06,368 --> 00:37:09,190
example. 
You know, people want to win. 

559
00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:12,723
winning is an incredibly important thing. 
You work for a long time, you practice 

560
00:37:12,723 --> 00:37:15,622
for a long time. 
And not just if you're at the top like 

561
00:37:15,622 --> 00:37:18,511
Lance Armstrong. 
But, but throughout the way. 

562
00:37:18,511 --> 00:37:21,669
You dedicate your life to this, and you 
want to be better. 

563
00:37:21,669 --> 00:37:25,269
And there's all kinds of interesting ways 
to convince yourself that you're better 

564
00:37:25,269 --> 00:37:30,769
and to actually let you, let you do this. 
And, you know, one of the cyclists I 

565
00:37:30,769 --> 00:37:34,795
talked to who, who doped, again, I asked 
him about where he ended up being, and he 

566
00:37:34,795 --> 00:37:40,095
said he could have never imagined he 
would have gone there. 

567
00:37:40,095 --> 00:37:45,193
But everything was step by step. 
so in the beginning one of his teammates 

568
00:37:45,193 --> 00:37:49,001
had gone to this doctor. 
And he went to that doctor and somebody 

569
00:37:49,001 --> 00:37:54,010
was wearing a white coat and that person 
gave him a prescription. 

570
00:37:54,010 --> 00:37:56,930
And he went to the pharmacy and he got 
filled it up. 

571
00:37:56,930 --> 00:38:01,424
And then his insurance paid for it. 
And the first time he injected himself he 

572
00:38:01,424 --> 00:38:04,170
felt strange about it. 
But he quickly made it a part of his 

573
00:38:04,170 --> 00:38:07,290
daily regime of just kind of kind of you 
know took all those supplements, it does 

574
00:38:07,290 --> 00:38:11,610
all kinds of things. 
He also inject himself and he did not 

575
00:38:11,610 --> 00:38:15,614
think of it as a different part in his 
routine. 

576
00:38:15,614 --> 00:38:19,706
And then, he moved to another team. 
And there it was more open and they got 

577
00:38:19,706 --> 00:38:23,050
lots of other drugs and not just this 
one. 

578
00:38:23,050 --> 00:38:24,880
And then there was a shortage of this 
drug. 

579
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,413
But he know somebody, he knew somebody 
from a Chinese team. 

580
00:38:27,413 --> 00:38:29,860
So they send him the drug and then he 
found other people. 

581
00:38:29,860 --> 00:38:32,060
He started selling the drugs and then, 
anyway. 

582
00:38:32,060 --> 00:38:35,570
It got worse and worse and worse until 
eventually he was drug he was dealing 

583
00:38:35,570 --> 00:38:39,928
drugs. 
But, there was no real question of money 

584
00:38:39,928 --> 00:38:43,180
here. 
There was a question of motivation to be 

585
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:47,263
the best cyclist. 
That he could to keep up with the team, 

586
00:38:47,263 --> 00:38:53,840
to be not to disappoint people, to live 
up to expectation. 

587
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,092
So, so when we think about this honesty. 
I'm getting to your question, I'm 

588
00:38:58,092 --> 00:39:00,347
thinking. 
[laugh] When we think about dishonesty, I 

589
00:39:00,347 --> 00:39:03,400
don't want us to think it's just for 
money. 

590
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,091
There's a ton of human motivations. 
Many of them are more powerful than 

591
00:39:06,091 --> 00:39:09,370
money. 
And we will cheat for all of them. 

592
00:39:09,370 --> 00:39:14,320
- So in most of these examples, 
dishonesty is a bad thing. 

593
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,150
We don't want to cheat. 
We don't want to be dishonest. 

594
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:18,800
But are there cases in which dishonesty 
could be a good thing? 

595
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:23,009
Where we want to lie? 
- Absolutely, and that's, and that's kind 

596
00:39:23,009 --> 00:39:26,878
of the, the really essential part of the 
problem. 

597
00:39:26,878 --> 00:39:30,184
So there's a story in the Bible. 
Can I? 

598
00:39:30,184 --> 00:39:33,158
- Can you quote the bible? 
[laugh] - I can quote the bible? 

599
00:39:33,158 --> 00:39:35,527
- I guess. 
- There's a story in the Bible that God 

600
00:39:35,527 --> 00:39:40,700
comes to Sarah, and said Sarah you're 
going to have a son. 

601
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:43,352
And Sarah laughs. 
And she says how can I have a son when my 

602
00:39:43,352 --> 00:39:47,080
husband is so old? 
God said don't worry about it. 

603
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,824
By the way, this is my version of the 
Bible, the original is slightly 

604
00:39:49,824 --> 00:39:52,274
different. 
and then God goes to Abraham and he said, 

605
00:39:52,274 --> 00:39:56,930
Abraham, you're going to have a son. 
And Abraham says, did you tell Sarah? 

606
00:39:56,930 --> 00:40:00,330
And God said yes. 
And Abraham says, and what did Sarah say? 

607
00:40:01,490 --> 00:40:06,830
And Sarah said, how could she have a son 
when she is so old? 

608
00:40:06,830 --> 00:40:10,070
And the religious scholars have wondered 
how could God lie? 

609
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:15,088
Lots of discussions about this. 
The final conclusion is that it's okay to 

610
00:40:15,088 --> 00:40:19,860
lie for peace at home. 
[foreign] In, in Hebrew. 

611
00:40:19,860 --> 00:40:23,140
by that way, that's a wonderful 
rationalization if you, if you need it. 

612
00:40:23,140 --> 00:40:25,480
And I've talked to all kinds of religious 
leaders about it. 

613
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:32,140
And one of them basically said that 
there's lots of human values. 

614
00:40:32,140 --> 00:40:36,910
And sadly not all human values are 
compatible with each other all the time. 

615
00:40:36,910 --> 00:40:39,791
And there's a question of what do you do 
when some human values collide with other 

616
00:40:39,791 --> 00:40:44,200
ones? 
And what religion has told us, at least 

617
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,200
some religions, is that honesty is not 
the most important one. 

618
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,425
And sometimes when it's your honesty 
versus the good feeling of somebody else 

619
00:40:53,425 --> 00:40:58,960
that you care about, that good feeling 
should should win. 

620
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:00,810
And in some sense we all know that, 
right. 

621
00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:04,374
Nobody thinks that the right question to 
the, the right answer to the question, 

622
00:41:04,374 --> 00:41:09,180
honey how do I look in that dress is 
always the right, the right answer. 

623
00:41:09,180 --> 00:41:12,052
By the way, this is a great dress. 
- Thank you. 

624
00:41:12,052 --> 00:41:15,712
[laugh] - You're welcome. 
and, and you can also think about how 

625
00:41:15,712 --> 00:41:18,130
many of you would want to live with 
somebody who always told you nothing but 

626
00:41:18,130 --> 00:41:20,770
the honest truth. 
Right? 

627
00:41:20,770 --> 00:41:21,530
No? 
Not so much. 

628
00:41:21,530 --> 00:41:25,300
And, and not only that but we teach our 
kids to lie. 

629
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:29,509
We teach our kids not to tell people the 
ab, absolute truth and to hide some 

630
00:41:29,509 --> 00:41:34,301
things and to be polite. 
And we understnad that the honest, 

631
00:41:34,301 --> 00:41:38,300
perfect truth is a antidote for social 
lubrication. 

632
00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:42,205
We need some dishonesty to get people to 
feel happier about themselves and to live 

633
00:41:42,205 --> 00:41:46,396
harmoniously with ourselves. 
The problem is that we learn all these 

634
00:41:46,396 --> 00:41:49,280
lessons in the social domain as we grow 
up. 

635
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,850
We learn from our parents to lie in 
social circumstances. 

636
00:41:52,850 --> 00:41:56,135
And then we move to a world that has both 
the social life. 

637
00:41:56,135 --> 00:42:00,260
Where lying is okay. 
Some lying is okay, and dishonesty and so 

638
00:42:00,260 --> 00:42:02,561
on. 
To the business world, when it's not the 

639
00:42:02,561 --> 00:42:04,801
case. 
So, in the regular life, I want my 

640
00:42:04,801 --> 00:42:08,571
friends and family to be, to care about 
my feelings and not to tell me the brutal 

641
00:42:08,571 --> 00:42:12,142
truth. 
Do I really want my accountant to care 

642
00:42:12,142 --> 00:42:14,600
about my feeling and not tell me the 
honest truth? 

643
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,442
No. 
Do I want the, the CEO of a company to 

644
00:42:17,442 --> 00:42:20,670
care about my feelings? 
No. 

645
00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:25,169
So, so it's kind of a strange situation. 
When we grew up in a social environment 

646
00:42:25,169 --> 00:42:29,385
where the rules are one, but then we need 
to apply them in a different environment, 

647
00:42:29,385 --> 00:42:34,500
and that environment actually has 
different rules to it. 

648
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:37,829
And it's actually quite, quite tough for 
us to, to manage. 

649
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:41,637
And by the way, I think for students this 
is one of the toughest org, structures 

650
00:42:41,637 --> 00:42:45,613
because students in the US at least they 
basically live and work with their fellow 

651
00:42:45,613 --> 00:42:50,030
students. 
So they, they overlap between the social 

652
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:53,305
life and the business life. 
What, you know, the, the, this 

653
00:42:53,305 --> 00:42:57,280
professional student part is almost 
perfectly overlapping. 

654
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,890
And what you do if one of your best 
friends sits next to you and say could 

655
00:42:59,890 --> 00:43:02,780
you help me answer this question on the 
exam? 

656
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,873
Which, which one of those win, right? 
So, so it's actually. 

657
00:43:06,873 --> 00:43:10,410
A, I think there's lot of places we want 
some dishonesty. 

658
00:43:10,410 --> 00:43:15,096
But we also have to understand that the 
social world and the professional world 

659
00:43:15,096 --> 00:43:19,853
are overlapping and as they become more 
and more overlapping it becomes more 

660
00:43:19,853 --> 00:43:26,461
questionable what are the boundaries for 
honesty and dishonesty? 

661
00:43:26,461 --> 00:43:31,644
if you work with some people but you also 
enjoy them socially, right, what does it 

662
00:43:31,644 --> 00:43:35,130
mean? 
How should you treat them? 

663
00:43:35,130 --> 00:43:37,595
Very, very difficult. 
- Indeed. 

664
00:43:38,809 --> 00:43:43,432
so one of the ways that you've found to 
increase honesty is by presenting people 

665
00:43:43,432 --> 00:43:50,550
with moral reminders. 
And this works once, maybe twice. 

666
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:54,710
do you think that the effect of 
increasing this honesty would wear off 

667
00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:58,740
after repeated exposure if constantly 
you're having to sign at the top of a 

668
00:43:58,740 --> 00:44:02,679
quiz, or at the bottom? 
- Yeah. 

669
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:07,034
[laugh] So, so I think that the question 
of whether it would keep on working or 

670
00:44:07,034 --> 00:44:10,237
not. 
Is a question of whether people would 

671
00:44:10,237 --> 00:44:14,275
keep on thinking about it or not. 
So if you basically just sign something 

672
00:44:14,275 --> 00:44:18,380
and after a while you just stop thinking 
about what you're signing. 

673
00:44:18,380 --> 00:44:21,735
You just said I know it is a blank space 
on that document that I need to put my 

674
00:44:21,735 --> 00:44:26,080
signature on. 
I don't think that would work. 

675
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,158
I think if you basically have a 
thoughtful process and every time you 

676
00:44:29,158 --> 00:44:32,668
read the statement you say, what does it 
really mean, what do I care about and so 

677
00:44:32,668 --> 00:44:37,297
on, it would matter. 
the, the so, so they real issue is not 

678
00:44:37,297 --> 00:44:41,037
what, whether the signature will become 
automatic but whether will people still 

679
00:44:41,037 --> 00:44:47,237
think about it or not. 
So, one approach, which I hope we will 

680
00:44:47,237 --> 00:44:51,780
test one day, is to not just do the 
signature, but ask, ask each person to 

681
00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:57,215
write down their own version to an honor 
code. 

682
00:44:57,215 --> 00:44:59,880
And I think if you had to write your own 
version, you would actually think about 

683
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,016
it. 
It would be very hard for you not to 

684
00:45:02,016 --> 00:45:04,920
think about what your version of the 
honor code is. 

685
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,410
Then you would have to explicit about it, 
the chances are, are much higher. 

686
00:45:08,410 --> 00:45:11,760
So, the issue is not the writing. 
The issue is thoughts and whether we 

687
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,260
think that people would keep on thinking 
about this or they will stop. 

688
00:45:16,260 --> 00:45:18,770
but, and if they will keep on thinking, 
it will keep on working. 

689
00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:21,071
If they'll stop, it will stop. 
- Okay. 

690
00:45:21,071 --> 00:45:24,930
Alright. 
I have so many good questions. 

691
00:45:24,930 --> 00:45:27,874
I'm having a really difficult time 
choosing because we're running out of 

692
00:45:27,874 --> 00:45:31,412
time, I think. 
But I really want to ask you to talk 

693
00:45:31,412 --> 00:45:36,308
about how a little bit of cheating by a 
lot of people is much bigger problem that 

694
00:45:36,308 --> 00:45:42,956
a lot of cheating by a few people. 
Do have any numbers that sort of back up 

695
00:45:42,956 --> 00:45:47,664
the real societal cost of the, these 
trends in cheating? 

696
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:56,450
- It, it's very hard to, very hard to 
quantify and exactly how it works. 

697
00:45:56,450 --> 00:46:01,160
But I'll give you a couple of, a couple 
of numbers. 

698
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:07,205
there was a study a few years ago that 
showed the amount of stealing from, by 

699
00:46:07,205 --> 00:46:15,330
people who work for the Los Angeles 
government, the local government. 

700
00:46:15,330 --> 00:46:19,523
People who, you know, don't steal money 
it's not embezzlement. 

701
00:46:19,523 --> 00:46:23,811
But, you know, fuel their cars on the gas 
bill from the company and take chairs 

702
00:46:23,811 --> 00:46:29,869
home and papers and all kinds of things 
like that, was a billion dollars. 

703
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,310
This is just in L.A., where did you grow 
up? 

704
00:46:35,310 --> 00:46:40,379
[laugh] - Possibly Los Angeles. 
[laugh] - Possibly. 

705
00:46:40,379 --> 00:46:45,999
And, and as also frightening numbers on 
employee theft. 

706
00:46:45,999 --> 00:46:50,402
Right, employee theft is a huge problem. 
People basically kind of find it easy to 

707
00:46:50,402 --> 00:46:53,810
rationalize taking extra all kinds of 
things. 

708
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,512
From work, these are, these are 
devastating numbers compared to fighting 

709
00:46:59,512 --> 00:47:03,841
with external, external theft. 
Now you could say all the people who work 

710
00:47:03,841 --> 00:47:06,943
for people, for company X are just evil, 
and they're just stealing the most they 

711
00:47:06,943 --> 00:47:09,969
can. 
Most likely it's not just that, it's they 

712
00:47:09,969 --> 00:47:12,050
can. 
They say I worked so hard. 

713
00:47:12,050 --> 00:47:15,040
I didn't get paid enough and they can 
justify it. 

714
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,840
And then of course there's the financial 
crisis. 

715
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,875
And, you know, if you looked at the 
magnitude of the financial crisis, you 

716
00:47:21,875 --> 00:47:25,922
said how much of it can we really 
attribute to bad people. 

717
00:47:25,922 --> 00:47:32,426
You know, even Madoff, I'm not sure. 
we, we can decide he was just, it was 

718
00:47:32,426 --> 00:47:36,151
just evil. 
And, but, but if you look at, at the 

719
00:47:36,151 --> 00:47:40,617
financial crisis and, if you try to 
quantify how much it costs the, the 

720
00:47:40,617 --> 00:47:45,699
economy, it, it's really hard to imagine 
anybody being able to, you know, steal 

721
00:47:45,699 --> 00:47:52,130
and get amounts that are even close to 
that. 

722
00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:57,400
And, and the people who can aff, the 
many, many people who engineered that. 

723
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,435
It's also hard to think of them as evil 
people. 

724
00:47:59,435 --> 00:48:04,262
It's, it many, many, many of them right. 
It's basically an environment in which 

725
00:48:04,262 --> 00:48:08,550
you have a tremendous incentives to see 
reality in a different way and easy to 

726
00:48:08,550 --> 00:48:14,060
rationalize all kinds of things. 
Actually if you think about all of the 

727
00:48:14,060 --> 00:48:17,720
building blocks of dishonesty, the 
financial markets are basically the 

728
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:21,560
perfect environment to rationalize bad 
behavior, even better than iIlegal 

729
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,704
downloads. 
to basically rationalize very, very bad, 

730
00:48:26,704 --> 00:48:30,545
bad behavior. 
So, you know, I, it's very hard to come 

731
00:48:30,545 --> 00:48:35,118
up with a good example and compare things 
directly. 

732
00:48:35,118 --> 00:48:39,528
but I think that if you look at something 
like the financial crisis and you say how 

733
00:48:39,528 --> 00:48:43,371
much of it was done by people to like 
really thinking carefully about what 

734
00:48:43,371 --> 00:48:47,340
they're doing and saying I want to be 
wealthy, I don't care about those other 

735
00:48:47,340 --> 00:48:53,394
people. 
Or another way, how many of the people 

736
00:48:53,394 --> 00:48:57,362
who were involved in some way in the 
financial crisis would've taken money 

737
00:48:57,362 --> 00:49:03,960
from an old person's home, even if they 
knew they couldn't get caught. 

738
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,563
I think very, very few of them. 
At the same time, with the right 

739
00:49:06,563 --> 00:49:09,650
circumstance, it's easy to justify all 
kinds of things. 

740
00:49:09,650 --> 00:49:13,671
So, it's hard for me to give a good 
numerical answer. 

741
00:49:13,671 --> 00:49:18,430
I just think that the magnitude are 
dramatically different. 

742
00:49:18,430 --> 00:49:21,620
And there's, there's a few numbers that 
are worthwhile thinking about. 

743
00:49:21,620 --> 00:49:28,418
So, what do you, what do you think is the 
average payoff in the US for somebody who 

744
00:49:28,418 --> 00:49:34,598
robs a home? 
You know, when they rob a home of course 

745
00:49:34,598 --> 00:49:37,881
there's a cost for the people who lost 
the property, there's broken windows and, 

746
00:49:37,881 --> 00:49:41,566
and so on. 
And maybe somebody lost a TV and a 

747
00:49:41,566 --> 00:49:44,184
computer. 
And, and they lost that and it's 

748
00:49:44,184 --> 00:49:46,587
terrible. 
But then, for the criminal themselves, 

749
00:49:46,587 --> 00:49:50,100
they can't sell it at market value, it, 
it's stolen property. 

750
00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:52,495
They also can't directly, they have to 
sell it to somebody else. 

751
00:49:52,495 --> 00:49:56,785
And I think the number is that in the US, 
the average criminal gets about $200 for 

752
00:49:56,785 --> 00:50:02,370
burglary and entry on average. 
if you think about the risk of that job, 

753
00:50:02,370 --> 00:50:07,131
that's, that's a , not very, not a very 
high, high payoff. 

754
00:50:07,131 --> 00:50:11,755
And now, just contrast it to somebody who 
manages millions of dollars and can, you 

755
00:50:11,755 --> 00:50:16,311
know, shave a fraction of a penny here 
and there but frequently here and there 

756
00:50:16,311 --> 00:50:22,025
and it gives you kind of a sense of the 
magnitude. 

757
00:50:22,025 --> 00:50:27,062
I think that, that the best estimate I 
saw, that the life, the expected lifetime 

758
00:50:27,062 --> 00:50:31,661
income from crime for the average blue 
collar American criminal is $30,000 

759
00:50:31,661 --> 00:50:37,160
lifetime income. 
Now it's true that they spend much of 

760
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:43,355
their life in prison, so it's not a, you 
know, a fully productive life. 

761
00:50:43,355 --> 00:50:48,027
But, but nevertheless, it's a very it's 
kind of strange to talk about it as 

762
00:50:48,027 --> 00:50:52,706
salary. 
But, but the, the rewards, the financial 

763
00:50:52,706 --> 00:50:56,274
rewards from that line of work is, is 
incredibly low. 

764
00:50:56,274 --> 00:50:59,424
- Sounds like it. 
[laugh] - Yeah. 

765
00:50:59,424 --> 00:51:02,430
Don't go be criminals. 
- Right, right. 

766
00:51:02,430 --> 00:51:06,267
Doesn't sound very appealing. 
- By the way we Aline and I and other 

767
00:51:06,267 --> 00:51:11,300
people from the lab went a few weeks ago 
to the jail. 

768
00:51:11,300 --> 00:51:16,995
it was just so depressing to see the 
cycle of people who were caught for 

769
00:51:16,995 --> 00:51:21,688
something. 
Or are awaiting trial and then caught for 

770
00:51:21,688 --> 00:51:25,252
something else. 
And then the bail is so expensive. 

771
00:51:25,252 --> 00:51:28,892
And they, they have to get into more 
financial difficulty just to post bail 

772
00:51:28,892 --> 00:51:33,558
and then I think the cycle continues, 
it's a, it's an awful, awful. 

773
00:51:33,558 --> 00:51:35,710
- Yeah. 
- Situation was very depressing. 

774
00:51:35,710 --> 00:51:37,993
- It's like once you're get in it's very 
hard to get out. 

775
00:51:37,993 --> 00:51:40,595
- It's very hard, yeah. 
- So, let's not get in. 

776
00:51:40,595 --> 00:51:45,218
Alright, some of the students saw your 
cure all video, and were curious about 

777
00:51:45,218 --> 00:51:49,554
whether you've done any research with 
placebos. 

778
00:51:49,554 --> 00:51:51,498
That sort of thing. 
- Yes. 

779
00:51:51,498 --> 00:51:56,345
- And I happen to know you have. 
[laugh] So, would you like to 1 minute. 

780
00:51:56,345 --> 00:51:58,138
- 1 minute on placebos. 
- Yeah. 

781
00:51:58,138 --> 00:52:00,268
- Okay. 
So, I love placebos. 

782
00:52:00,268 --> 00:52:03,006
Really, 1 minute that's it? 
I can't have like 3? 

783
00:52:03,006 --> 00:52:05,065
- Okay. 
You can have 2 and a half. 

784
00:52:05,065 --> 00:52:08,688
- Okay. 
So, when I was in hospital many years 

785
00:52:08,688 --> 00:52:12,780
ago. 
each patient had a, a limited dosage of 

786
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:16,740
morphine we could take throughout the 
day. 

787
00:52:16,740 --> 00:52:20,527
We had like a, a budget. 
And I basically followed, everybody 

788
00:52:20,527 --> 00:52:24,010
followed, did I take morphine? 
How many times a day? 

789
00:52:24,010 --> 00:52:25,965
How do much I want to space it out? 
And so on. 

790
00:52:25,965 --> 00:52:29,540
But, being slightly obsessive, I also 
followed how much other people in other 

791
00:52:29,540 --> 00:52:33,422
rooms were getting. 
And I was trying kind of to figure out, 

792
00:52:33,422 --> 00:52:37,730
to make sure I'm getting the right, the 
right, amount. 

793
00:52:37,730 --> 00:52:41,616
And sometimes at night, when I was out of 
morphine already, I took mine earlier in 

794
00:52:41,616 --> 00:52:45,122
the day. 
I would hear one of my fellow patients, 

795
00:52:45,122 --> 00:52:48,839
scream and shout and so on, then the 
nurse would go and give them morphine and 

796
00:52:48,839 --> 00:52:53,448
they would fall asleep. 
And then I would call the nurse and say, 

797
00:52:53,448 --> 00:52:56,542
hey! 
They got more than their regular budget, 

798
00:52:56,542 --> 00:52:59,865
I want extra too! 
And sometimes they would tell me that 

799
00:52:59,865 --> 00:53:03,210
they just gave them placebos. 
And you know you hear about placebos, 

800
00:53:03,210 --> 00:53:06,378
that's one thing. 
But when you know someone was 

801
00:53:06,378 --> 00:53:11,340
experiencing the same pain as you getting 
placebo and going to sleep? 

802
00:53:11,340 --> 00:53:15,900
That's a, that's an amazing, hard, hard 
to imagine. 

803
00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:19,428
So I started reading about placebos later 
on and I discovered that placebos really 

804
00:53:19,428 --> 00:53:23,032
work. 
And the way they work is that if somebody 

805
00:53:23,032 --> 00:53:27,064
gives you an injection and you expect it 
to be effective, it will actually be 

806
00:53:27,064 --> 00:53:32,070
effective. 
And what happens is when you get an 

807
00:53:32,070 --> 00:53:35,920
injection, your body secretes a substance 
very much like morphine, but you secrete 

808
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,736
it from the inside. 
So, you might not get anything from the 

809
00:53:39,736 --> 00:53:43,240
outside, but you truly get morphine, but 
it's through your brain. 

810
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:45,920
Now, you can't close your eyes and say, I 
feel like morphine now. 

811
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,610
Go. 
But, the moment there's an injection, 

812
00:53:48,610 --> 00:53:53,540
it's the outside activity that creates 
expectation that creates a secretion. 

813
00:53:53,540 --> 00:53:57,314
So we've done some experiments with 
placebo painkillers. 

814
00:53:57,314 --> 00:54:02,004
And we've shown basically expensive 
painkillers work better than cheap 

815
00:54:02,004 --> 00:54:05,742
painkillers. 
And the idea is the same, is that when 

816
00:54:05,742 --> 00:54:10,365
something is expensive, your expectation 
for it is higher, therefore you secrete 

817
00:54:10,365 --> 00:54:17,215
more substance that is morphine-like, and 
therefore you get actual more relief. 

818
00:54:17,215 --> 00:54:21,570
And I think if we thought about this role 
of expectation in all kinds of ways you 

819
00:54:21,570 --> 00:54:26,930
can say what other things would get 
expectation to be higher. 

820
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:32,110
Is it somebody with a white coat? 
Is it an injection? 

821
00:54:32,110 --> 00:54:34,420
Is it the high price, is it the nice 
brand name? 

822
00:54:34,420 --> 00:54:38,351
All kinds of things like that. 
Increase expectation and therefore 

823
00:54:38,351 --> 00:54:41,984
increase the efficacy of the product. 
- Alright. 

824
00:54:41,984 --> 00:54:45,230
- Was this two and a half minutes? 
- you know, I didn't actually count. 

825
00:54:45,230 --> 00:54:51,060
[laugh] I'm sure someone did. 
But we can check later. 

826
00:54:51,060 --> 00:54:55,140
so someone asked about self deception and 
actors, or people who are trained in 

827
00:54:55,140 --> 00:54:58,622
drama. 
Do you think that actors are actually 

828
00:54:58,622 --> 00:55:03,772
better at self deception? 
They're more they believe their lies 

829
00:55:03,772 --> 00:55:07,030
more? 
Or maybe they can discount for for their 

830
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:11,117
lying and dishonesty because they're so 
used to putting themselves in that sort 

831
00:55:11,117 --> 00:55:15,550
of situation. 
- Wow, that's interesting. 

832
00:55:15,550 --> 00:55:20,310
So, so first of all we all have some 
capacity for, for self deception. 

833
00:55:20,310 --> 00:55:23,430
And, an evolutionary argument for self 
deception is very simple. 

834
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:27,679
Right the, imagine life is poker. 
Which means that you want to lie, but you 

835
00:55:27,679 --> 00:55:30,601
don't want to tell. 
You don't want to give signals that 

836
00:55:30,601 --> 00:55:33,330
you're lying. 
So in poker if you really believe you 

837
00:55:33,330 --> 00:55:36,696
have a great hand. 
That's, that's kind of a good strategy 

838
00:55:36,696 --> 00:55:39,226
for poker. 
So the people who argue for the 

839
00:55:39,226 --> 00:55:44,478
evolutionary role of self-deception argue 
for a poker-like mechanism. 

840
00:55:44,478 --> 00:55:47,075
I think what's interesting in the 
question of actors is not just 

841
00:55:47,075 --> 00:55:51,030
self-deception, but it's deception more 
generally. 

842
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:55,287
So if you think about the ability to 
compartmentalize part of life. 

843
00:55:55,287 --> 00:55:59,508
This is about illegal downloads and this 
is about this and society gives us these 

844
00:55:59,508 --> 00:56:02,956
boundaries. 
And therefore we can misbehave in one 

845
00:56:02,956 --> 00:56:07,910
area, illegal downloads, but don't think 
that we're bad people overall. 

846
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:11,312
I think an interesting question is 
whether acting allows you to create more 

847
00:56:11,312 --> 00:56:14,550
boundaries around particular behavior, 
saying. 

848
00:56:15,620 --> 00:56:20,478
This was just a different behavior and 
that doesn't reflect back on my. 

849
00:56:20,478 --> 00:56:24,762
I mean image somebody's who's I guess 
they don't really do terrible stuff when 

850
00:56:24,762 --> 00:56:28,372
they act. 
But, but behaving in a terrible way, you 

851
00:56:28,372 --> 00:56:33,000
need to have some ability to basically 
say, this is not who I am. 

852
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,551
So, let's say we're acting some scene and 
I'm saying really abusive stuff to you, 

853
00:56:36,551 --> 00:56:39,384
right. 
At some point I have to say, this is not 

854
00:56:39,384 --> 00:56:43,208
really me. 
And maybe the skill of separating things 

855
00:56:43,208 --> 00:56:47,176
and saying this doesn't reflect anything 
on me would generalize to, to other 

856
00:56:47,176 --> 00:56:50,416
misbehavior. 
Very interesting. 

857
00:56:50,416 --> 00:56:54,214
We should definitely try it out, I think 
it's a good, it's a good idea. 

858
00:56:54,214 --> 00:56:58,139
- Great, let's find some actors. 
[laugh] Alright that is all we have time 

859
00:56:58,139 --> 00:57:01,177
for today. 
Thank you for watching all of this and 

860
00:57:01,177 --> 00:57:02,793
see you next time. 

861
00:57:07,262 --> 00:57:24,999
[SOUND]